Milonguero's Room

Interview Six: DJ Mario Orlando

2010-12-16T00:03:00.006-05:00

Mario Orlando is one of the most recognized Tango DJs in Buenos Aires. This day, I didn’t have an appointment to have an interview with him but he spontaneously accepted by Carlos Matera who is the organizer of Sunderland kindly offering. The time was right after I interviewed Graciela and Carlos Matera, and the night was about to start. People started to come into the milonga, eating, greeting with people, not much dancers on the dance floor yet. I wanted to interview a DJ also, so this was a wonderful bonus, and he gave us a very interesting talk.

Q. How long have you been a DJ?

I have been DJing more or less 30 years. In here (Sunderland) I’ve been DJing about 10 years. There is a place I’ve been DJing for more than 15 years.

Q. When you provide music, how do you decide which music to play?

The music that I play is adapted by the style of the neighborhood. Each neighborhood has its own style and steps are different. What distinguishes the style here (Villa Urquiza) is elegance and steps are long. There are places like in Center (central area of down town BsAs) that I play faster rhythmic tangos, like D’Arienzo, Biagi, Rodoriguez. Certain music is not as popular as other clubs. For example, when I play Rodoriguez in here, they would dance to it, but they are not very happy, because it doesn’t conform the style they dance. Here what they like is Tanturi, Calo, Troilo, Di Sarli, D’Agositono, I put a lot of Di Sarli here.

The music that I’m playing now is a new Orchestra with a style of Di Sarli. It sounds like Di Sarli but it’s a new group by younger people with it’s own personality. What I try to do is to put some new music so people would get used to slowly. I keep the tradition but at the same time I do adapt to the new people, new milongueros. I up date repertoire but keep the night on the tradition.

Q. Do you change music by seasons?

Not exactly by the seasons, but the season changes the crowds and I change the music by the crowds. For example, in the low season which usually happens in April ~ August, the mood changes in milongas, because there are more locals and not many tourists. Also there are times when we have more people from Europe, Japan, or the US. So I change the music by the people and the atmosphere.

Q. Do you find local people and foreigners have different taste in music?

I think foreigners are more open-minded. Argentineans tend to dance just 5 orchestras, and no more. That’s all they want to hear.

When I started traveling abroad to DJ, foreign DJs asked me “you don’t know this music?” It’s not that I don’t know, I have the music but I don’t play it because people wouldn’t dance to it. With foreigners I need to be more open-minded.

When I play music I always try to put lots of energy into the music and I find foreign DJs don’t have much energy in their music.

Q. How do local people accept music?

I think in tango, there’s always been a great attachment in terms of music. For example the milongueros in the '30s, they were used to the music of the '30s, so when the music of the '40s came around, they said “No, you can’t dance to it” because it was not familiar to them. But obviously the same thing happened in the '50s. A lot of orchestras came out in this period, for example, D’Angeles. People called carousel music. It was not accepted because they didn’t recognize the music the way they adapt dancing.

Q. In general do DJ people dance tango?

No, the majority does not dance. They can’t dance. But I think that is a big mistake, not being able to dance as a DJ. I’ve been dancing for 25 years. I dance and DJ Salsa, too. I like other styles as well. I used to DJ Disco, weddings, different kinds of parties and events.

Q. What was it like DJing for other events?

It gave me flexibility to be very energetic in my music. For example, you are in a wedding party with the moment when everybody is eating, I noticed that DJs would put music that are very very relaxing, like elevator music. The music was too quiet it made people to sleep. By the time people started to go dancing, they were too relaxed, it was impossible to move and dance. (Laugh) So what I did was to put the music that people used to dance ten years ago while they were eating. By recognizing the music, people would get into the mood. I had different ways to put people to get up. This is the way I kept to make people get up and dancing in Tango.

So you need skills to observe people in many different ways.

I think that the DJ is the psychiatrist of the dance floor. Not of the individuals but of the dance floor. Once I was invited to give a talk about the anthropology of the dance floor, by a friend of mine who is an anthropologist. Because in tango, there are different characters. For example, the people go dancing in the afternoon are different from the people in the evening. Tango people in the afternoon are the people who have problems, coming from lost in time. They come to dance to be released, to forget about their troubles. People who go out in night, they only want to have good time.

Q. How do you find being a DJ?

There was a milonga that I was DJing for 11 years. One night I was passing music of Canaro from 1927. The floor was very packed, because the music was so beautiful. People were complaining because the floor was so packed they couldn’t move. There was a woman who was dancing, and when she came around me she says “Take away this music, it’s depressing me.” I said “Well, I am very sorry about that but I am the DJ not your psychiatrist.” Obviously they were complaining that they couldn’t dance. (laugh)

This job is very stressful. I have various friends who stopped working as DJ because it’s very difficult. People are never happy, always criticizing you. You can never please everybody. It’s very thankless job.

I need to go back to the booth and change the music now.

Thank you so much for your time.

Miscellaneous

"Mario Orlando is my real name, not an artistic name."

"I work from Tuesday to Sunday DJing. In Thursday and Friday I have two milongas. I leave home at 3 in the afternoon and go back home 6 am in the morning."

"There are places that I put non-traditional music too. One of the milongas that I DJ is a gay Milonga (La Marshal). Obviously it’s not traditional. In that milonga, I put music like electronical, Greek music. It’s called gay milonga but a lot of people go there are not gay."

The following Thursday, I went to El Arranque the afternoon milonga (Central BsAs) and accidentally met him again. He asked me, “do you find the difference in music?” Yes, I heard more rhythmic music, a lot of D’Arienzos J and the steps were smaller. He was in a T-Shirt more relaxed atmosphere and it made me more relaxed too.

Interview Five: Sunderland Club "La Milonga del Mundo"

2010-03-20T01:12:00.001-04:00

This is an interview with Graciela and Carlos Matera, the organizers of the Sunderland Club "La Milonga del Mundo". Sunderland Club is one of the most important and respected milongas in Buenos Aires, located north of the capital in the neighborhood of Villa Urquiza. This milonga is held every Saturday night. I asked and arranged an appointment for an interview before the trip and Graciela and Carlos kindly agreed to see me and to do the interview. The interview was done one hour before the milonga, on December 12, 2009.

When was this club found?

The Sunderland Club is a social club and it was found 93 years ago. The milonga started in 1940s.

Are you the founder of this milonga?

The founder was a tango lyricist. His name is Mario Battistella.

When did you start organizing this milonga?

We started about 10 years ago. There were many others after we lost Battistella . The name "La Milonga del Mundo" ("the milonga of the world") represents us. And it's been about 10 years now. The name of the milongas has always been Sunderland Club since Battistella, but "El Mundo" means us.

What is the intention behind this name "El Mundo"?

Because all the greatest dancers, like Gavito, Gloria and Eduardo who brought tango to the world they all started from this club.

I hear Sunderland is a different kind of institution, created by this neighborhood, "Villa Urquiza". It is not the same as rest of the milongas. What does it mean?

Because this club created quantity of important dancers, such as; Finito, Petroleo, Portalea Villarrazo, Lampazo. These are the older generation. And for the next generation there are Balamaceda, he's not from Urquiza but he was here to dance, Gavito, Zotto, Rivarola, Maria, Gloria and Eduardo. They all came out from this club.

Did all these dancers' parents danced in this club too?

No, no. Not in every case. There are families like Misse, all the children dance professionally but their parents don't dance tango. Javier Rodriguez comes here to dance but he's parents are not tango dancers.

So this area just happened to create good dancers?

No, because there were many great dancers in other neighborhoods also, but in this neighborhood, Villa Urquiza created the strongest dancers and many of the good ones brought more good ones. It didn't happen accidentally. There was a cause. This was in the golden age of tango. These dancers were identifiable, and created different styles. The styles were based on walking. It happened because of this big space also.

Were there many milongas in this neighborhood back then?

There were many, many others.

And only this milonga remained?

Only this and Sin Rumbo. There are still many more social clubs remaining now, but the milongas didn't remain.

Do you know why, this club remained?

It's a mystery. This place doesn't have any special ambiance, no luxuries, nothing special. Somehow it happened. It's a strange thing that some places put lots of effort to put beautiful floors or curtains, but they don't succeed. It's just a magic that happened here. It's something that we can not explain. We don't even do much publicity. All we do is to put fliers on the table announcing who's performing next week.

Were you open in the 70's?

No, it was the years during the dictatorship. All the milongas were closed that time. It was reopened in the 80's. I don't remember exactly which year.

Did you dance back then?

Yes! Yes, we did! We had private events more than anything that time. With people who could not stay without dancing, we got together like 20- 30 couples. We ate and danced together every weekend.

Do you have the same DJ all the time?

Yes, we have the same DJ, Mario Orlando for 10 years since we started. Would you like to interview him also?

- Yes, I would love to! Thank you.

What is the most important thing as an organizer?

To meet the people that come. We give the vibe, warmth, make sure they are comfortable as they were at home. Give personal attention, welcoming. Of course provide good music... etc.

As being organizers, what kind of changes do you see over these years. I think tango has been changing and what kind of changes do you see as organizers?

Yes, yes. There are changes. There are, and the changes are made by younger people, the younger generation. There are changes in Tango but I believe here in Urquiza, we are keeping the tradition within the club. We are always going back to the roots of the tango.

The part of the reasons I am doing this, is because I think there are so many foreigners now than before, and I feel the increase of the foreigners is also creating the changes in tango. By us not knowing the codes or not understanding the essence, I'm afraid we are breaking tango into something else. I want to give the message to the foreigners that there are many other things we should know when we are dancing tango. I believe all foreigners wish to dance authentically. It doesn't mean we don't care. We want to know. We are simply ignorant about these matters. I wonder if you could kindly give us how you feel about foreigners' behaviors that seem to be trouble, so we can learn and dance better.

(they looked very much in trouble, being asked difficult question, but they kindly opened up to us and gave us honest feedback)

What I see all the time is, I see people (foreigners) want to learn very much, but they don't pay attention to the sensibility of the dance. All they want to learn is the mechanical part.

To talk about the codes, when they dance on the dance floor, they are not aware of other couples. There's no attention, no care to the other dancers on the dance floor. They go one way, then go to the other way, those dancers are thinking only about themselves. No manner. Passing, crossing other couples, these are rude. Also not having an embrace, to be open, that is a part of the problems causing traffic on the dance floor. Because embrace is the transmission.

When I go to milongas now, I feel I see elder people retired which is the majority, many tourists, and some young Argentinean people who are professionals.

Yes, I know what you mean. Right now actually there are more teachers than students. So many maestros. Most of them are maestros on the dance floor.

Has is always been this way?

Before people were just dancing for their own pleasure. Nobody thought they can make money or become professional by tango.

Before people learned from each other. They tried some figures, while other people were watching, then you try to do it yourself with someone at the corner, it was not something that you pay, or charge money to teach. Men practiced with men. There were practicas which was done only by men, because women were taboo. Women were not accessible back then. Also the difference in the old days, the good women dancers were called good "accompaniment", because the figure of women in relationship were more complicated. Now the women are dancing their parts, not only accompanying men.

Last question. What is your wish for the future of tango?

Our wish for the tango is to grow more and to be known around the world. World means in many different ways. To all kinds of cultures and people. To become more and more popular and be adopted in different cultures, but adopted in the right way, without changing it's nature. Now, there are many places they dance tango, but they are dancing it without understanding the roots and the tradition.

We wish tango to become more popular but with respect and understanding the roots of the tango, and not become something else. Keep dancing in the traditional way.

Thank you very much for your time.

Kumi's Journal: BA 2009 - 2

2010-01-25T17:09:00.000-05:00

Each time I come to Buenos Aires, I feel the city is getting cleaner and healthier. I feel more joy in the air. My first trip to Buenos Aires was in February of 2000. I was with my husband Yuki, BF at that time. It was before the crisis (December of 2001), and the city was dark. I felt the city had some kind of deep stagnation, ready to be explored. When I got back in 2005, I was so surprised that the city was filled with happiness, such a healthy energy. Since then each time I go back the city looks cleaner and nicer. I feel people are getting more jobs and making money. Things are circulating well and people are happy. But I don’t know how much that is true. I heard the economy and government is not doing well (“but that’s all the time, it has always been…” that’s what foreigners said but not the Argentines) and it’s getting very dangerous, but I didn’t particularly feel that this time.

When we went to Sin Rumbo (one of the historical Milongas in Villa Urquiza, north of capital) back in 2000, we didn’t know it would be so far away from the central area, we started to feel very insecure in the cab, because we felt the cab driver was taking us to out of nowhere. I started to feel “Maybe we are going to be robbed… but at least I am with Yuki, I am not alone.” The taxi came into a residential neighborhood, and the driver stopped couple of times to ask for the direction and finally, we safely arrived to Sin Rumbo. The place was very dark and empty. There were only two couples sitting at the tables and three guys were standing at the back talking. After we danced a few tandas, I danced with one of the guys from the back corner. The dance was incredibly wonderful…! When I went to Sin Rumbo this time, I noticed that the Sin Rumbo we went in 2000 was not Sin Rumbo! Because the real Sin Rumbo I went this time looked completely different. I guess the cab driver couldn’t find the place, we were taken to a different Milonga! No wonder I felt strange not recognizing the place when I watched videos from Sin Rumbo. I can’t believe after all these years until now, we always believed we danced in Sin Rumbo (LOL). But the dance I had with the guy from the back corner was the BEST DANCE I’ve ever had even ‘til today. I wonder what milonga we were taken?

When I went into the real Sin Rumbo this time, I saw Oliver Kolker and Silvina Vals dancing rock’n roll. Nice to see dancers from New York J Close to the entrance, Natacha Poberaj one of my favorite female dancers was sitting, and Carlos Rivarola was sitting behind our table. Daniel who was escorting me that night seemed excited to find Rivarola, and asked me if I wanted to ask Rivarola for an interview. Carlos Rivarola is a very important historical dancer. He was in the movie “Tango” dancing with Julio Boca. I know he has a very important position in the tango industry, but I don’t know why he is so important and I don’t know about him well enough to interview. I quietly looked back, and saw his face. He had a very serious face…. hmmm, well, I want to interview him but maybe next time, I told Daniel. We found Osvaldo and Coca, very happy to see them again. I didn’t expect to dance in this Milonga since this is a neighborhood milonga, they all come in couples. That is why I asked Daniel to accompany me. But I was asked to dance! Very happy!! As we were leaving the place I was introduced to Julio Duplaa, the organizer of Sin Rumbo and talked about interviewing Sin Rumbo when I visit next time.

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Taking the subways in the city, I saw many young gay couples. I didn’t see lesbians, maybe there were but guys looked more obvious, and I felt they were really addressing it. I thought it is like in the 80’s in New York. Gay people really acting for their rights. Once I was in a crowded subway, one gay couple started to show affections to each other, people around them especially guys looked not comfortable (still it’s a very machito country), then they became more aggressive and started to kiss. People around tried not to pay attention. Then a young couple (a guy and a girl) standing next to them started to kiss as they were competing or to stop them. The gay couple slowed down, and got off at the next stop. Soon after that on December 28^th, gay marriage became legal in Argentina. The first country approved in Latin America.

I hear gay night clubs has been very popular including gay milongas. It sounded like a hip place to be. I heard many women get to practice leading there. I didn’t have a chance to go, but I saw a lot of women leading in regular milongas also, especially end of the night. I lead a lot in New York, but I stayed conservative. Well, I have so many lovely locals to dance with, and I love dancing with 70, 80 year old dancers, why should I lead?! In some milongas, many milongueros came walked in front of me to ask if I wanted to dance. This never happened before, what happened to cabeseo (eye-to-eye contact)? Maybe they do it only to tourists? This is different from before. But I see this is how codes and traditions change.

Many of the dancers that I interviewed talked sadly about not having the codes any more. First I didn’t really understand what code meant. But I guess “codes” are not just about rules, I think it comes from being thoughtful to one another. A guy comes in front of you asking to dance. What if you didn’t want to dance with him? So they have eye-to-eye contact asking yes or no. But maybe, because of many of us foreigners don’t know about this system, locals started to walk up to us? I guess the shape of thoughtfulness changes by the changes of people.

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When I go to milongas the crowd is mostly made by older people who are retired, people younger than that are foreigners, and if I see younger Argentines, they are all professionals. I see very few regular Argentines. Maybe I am wrong. Or maybe the places I went happen to be that way. But it is very obvious that there are so many foreigners in milongas and the tango businesses are very much supported by foreigners. For me, it looks something not natural. I think the culture won’t grow if there are no regular Argentine people. And I feel this increase of foreigners is changing the shape of Milongas. In a few decades we will loose all these elderly people who created the tango scene today, and the new generation and foreigners will take over the milongas. What I am afraid is in the future, tango might loose its authenticity, and will become like “Dancing with the stars”.

It is wonderful that tango is expanding broad to the world and creating more dancers and those dancers from all over the world come to join the dance floors of Buenos Aires. But I think foreigners should learn more about the culture of this dance and the professionals should give more opportunities to teach the culture of this dance and explain the meanings behind the steps. Because even you dance the shape of tango, if there is no essence, it is not tango any more. And Tango will die if the majorities dance without its essence.

Many of the dancers who I interviewed said “It doesn’t have to be Argentinean. There are so many bad Argentine dancers too and there are many good dancers who are non Argentines.” They were particularly upset with young dancers. They said, “ Foreigners can transmit our dance.” … I don’t know. Maybe because I am Japanese, I have a different way of seeing things. I want regular non professional Argentine people to carry on this dance. But what can I do….

But by the end of this trip, I started to find out there is a new movement happening in Buenos Aires, to keep the tradition of tango. I read somewhere that there was a tango festivals focusing in tradition. El Tangauta was featuring interview with Chicho (pioneer of Tango Nuevo dancer) saying that he regrets he didn’t teach the tradition that he learned from his masters now he wants to emphasis the importance of understanding the essence of tango. Pablo Veron was also talking about the importance of traditions too. And I slowly started to find out that there are actually many regular Argentine people started to take lessons to learn tango just for their joy.

So, I guess I don’t need to worry so much. The locals are starting to put efforts in keeping the tradition, the movement is starting. That means it will come to us very soon.

Kumi's Journal: BA 2009 - 1

2010-01-04T00:38:00.000-05:00

This is a journal of my interview trip to Buenos Aires December 8^th to 20^th, 2009. From this trip I interviewed Osvaldo y Coca, the organizers and the DJ of Sunderland club, El Flaco Dani, and Nito y Elba. Since I don’t speak the language, theses interviews were held with help of translators, which are my friends from NY, and recorded to tapes. It will need a lot of time to put together them in writing, so I am going to write my experience what I saw, what I felt, whom I met, what I found out….. all about Argentine Tango from this trip.

A lot of people ask me if I want to publish a book by this. Well, that sounds good to me, but that is not the purpose I am doing this. I want to do this, I want to keep this in more pure way. I want to do this for the history, for the culture, for the people, and for us, us who once fell in love with tango and for the future of Argentine Tango.

I am Japanese and we have a long history and we have many old cultures and traditions. Somehow in my own way, I feel tango is very similar to Japanese Tea Ceremony. Japanese tea ceremony looks very up tight, and nothing about man and woman, but the bottom line of the ceremony is about “I am making this tea for you, for this meeting, for this moment”. We do everything very beautifully to make one cup of tea to make this meeting a wonderful one.

The tea ceremony was started somewhere in 1400. It took one hundred years to make the basic shape by Rikyu, and it took another 200 years to come up with the shape of today. It says that the basic shape which Rikyu created had changed tremendously after Rikyu died and, and many different styles were created. Taking another 200 years it came back to the basic shape of Rikyu style, and it is the basic style of today. Tango has been danced about 100 years now, and I think the basic shape was made by the ones who have been dancing since the 40’s and the 50’s. I feel tango has been changing and, I think it will change more after we loose these dancers from the golden age. So I want to keep the voices of the pioneers for the dancers in the future. To know where tango came from, to know the roots and to transmit the tradition of Argentine Tango made by their people, and ancestors.

When I asked questions to the dancers “I feel tango is changing, and what is your wish for the future of tango?” I felt they were not quite ready for this question. Usually they answered “If you are talking about Nuevo, Nuevo doesn’t bather me. For me Tango Nuevo does not exist . Tango will not change”. I felt for Argentine people, dancing tango is such a daily thing, I guess they never thought about this dance in a cultural historical way. But when they hear “future of tango” they all stop once and tear their eyes.

For this trip, I started to write proposal letters for interviewing about a month ago. I wanted to interview Suzuki Avellanda (wife of Pepito Avellaneda), El Chino Perico also, but we found out Suzuki moved to south of Argentina, and El Chino, we couldn’t get in touch. I was very fortunate to get an interview the 2004 World Salon Champions, Coca y Osvaldo, by arrangements of Annatina Luck from New York and Daniel Aranda from Buenos Aires. And Osvaldo and Coca happen to live in Avellaneda! I was excited to hear Avellaneda, because Pepito was named because he was from this area. Avellaneda is located south of Buenos Aires, it is a rather humble neighborhood.

View Larger Map

We took a train from the constitution. Beautiful train station! Like the ones I see in the old European movies.

Arrived to the Olvaldo’s town, we got off the train, I smelled grass. Kids were playing on the field. It’s countryside. Cross the bridge, by looking at the big map, and asking people, we found Osvaldo’s house. While we are walking I was told many of the famous dancers came from this neighborhood. Pepito Avellaneda of course, Carlos Gavito, Nito Garcia, Pibe Avellaneda and Pibe Sarandi. Many good dancers… it is hard to imagine this place (simple, nothing fancy neighborhood) created so many world famous dancers. So happy to be here!!

Daniel rings the doorbell, Coca and a happy dog invite us in. There is a big painting of Coca and Osvaldo in the room, and many photos of them on the walls. The painting was done by a friend from many years, a teacher of painting and it was given to them when they won the world championship as a present. I saw photos of Osvaldo on a horse and ornaments of a carriage with a horse. Coca said Osvaldo loves horses and he used to join horse shows and the ornaments were all made by him. As soon an I saw the ornaments, I said to myself “ahhh, Mano Blanca!” Mano Blanca is one of my very favorite songs, and I have many personal stories with this song. It is about a guy who rides a carriage with horses. I wanted to see something related with this song in this trip. I found it in Osvaldo’s home! Perfect :) Osvaldo says when he lost his mother, he went into heavy depression, and he made many of these, which helped him a lot.

The interview was done in their dining room. Osvaldo and Coca acts like teenage kids in love, so cute. Osvaldo says he’s been living here since he was 8 years old. There used to be many milongas around here in the 50’s. They went to milongas on the weekends and practiced on the weekdays. I asked if they danced in this room, and had parties on the weekends in the 70’s (when the country was in the dictatorship and tango was not danced much in dancehalls) “No, no,” He says, they stopped dancing after they got married and didn’t danced until the 90’s. I hear many old milongueros say “I’ve been dancing all my life” but he doesn’t say that. He is very honest. And he continues, “but Pepito used to come here all the time and we practiced together in this room since we were kids.” He said “if you like Pepito, he lived a few blocks from here, do you want to go see?” Of course, I said “Yes!!” Three of us got on Osvaldo’s beautiful black Fiat Ombu, (I thought it’s so Salon “simple beauty”) while he’s driving, he pointed, “this was a milonga”,

and pointed other way, “there was one too”. Sounds like in ten blocks there were about 5~6 Milongas plus many small practicas in the 50’s. In that time, people danced on the street too. In the Carnival, (they say it’s like Halloween in America, and I think it’s like a street fair or Fiesta in little Italy), they had a Pasa Disco (Music player, the DJ for nowadays) came to play music on the street and people in the neighborhood gathered and danced. It happened right in front of Pepito’s house.

This is Pepito’s house. While I was taking photos of his house, one elderly man came out,

looking “not understanding what’s going on at all”, probably Coca gave him a phone call that we headed there. He was Pepito’s brother, he still lives there. Osvaldo explains the situation, then he went back into the house and brought one photo with Pepito and a paper looks like a certificate. (later on I asked Annatina about this paper, it is a certificate given to Pepito by the municipal because he is exceptional in the tango world). Mosquitoes were flying all around us, maybe there were like 20, I couldn’t think very well from trying

to avoid mosquitoes. And looks like these mosquitoes don’t bite the locals. I was told this house has an oven from Italy, a special oven to make pizza. Then I remembered that YES! I read it in Todo Tango, Pepito’s father had a pizza shop and Pepito delivered Pizza. When he delivered pizzas to dancing places and he didn’t come home ‘til 6 in the morning, then he continued to work without any sleep. He was crazy with dancing. I couldn't believe myself I was actually looking at the real place with my eyes, in front of me. Pepito’s brother kindly told us to come back anytime to visit.

Osvaldo took us back to his house, while he was driving he said Suzuki comes back every year. When she comes back next year, I should come back here, he will introduce her to me. Inside the car, he was playing “Poema”. What a pleasure listening to “Poema” in Osvaldo’s car! Played by Osvaldo, in Avellaneda, returning from Pepito’s home....nmmmm I am happy. Of course I got bitten by many mosquitoes all over my legs and arms. They are still itching today, even in this freezing weather in New York, after 3 weeks.

The following day we went to Sin Rumbo. Osvaldo and Coca were there. We didn’t know they were performing that night. It was a very nice coincidence, meeting them again! When they were leaving, they kindly asked us if we would like to leave together, and Osvaldo offered us for a ride. It was a cold night. It was pretty hot in daytime, but at night it gets cold. Annatina said this is so strange getting this cold in this season. I wanted a jacket. While driving on Corrientes, Annatina pointed out “this is Chacarita, where Carlos Gardel’s grave is”. When I was here last time I tried to visit the grave of Gardel, but couldn’t find. Instead I went to Abasto, did shopping at Carlos Gardel street. How nice to be with the locals! Makes everything so easy! I have to visit this time, and it’s right in front of the subway. While we were talking, now Osvaldo says, “Do you know this statue of Pugliese?” I said “no?” then he stops the cars and told us to get out, started to show us the statue. Buenos Aires tour, 2:30 am in the morning! He took my arm and made me stand in one place, then handed my camera to Annatina and took her to the middle of the street, saying “take her from here”. We took many photos by Osvaldo’s directions.

I told this story to my friend after I came back to New York, then she told me that once this Puguliese’s statue was stolen one night and it became a national news. When I was there, the statue Pugliese was there. They put a new a one. Pugliese was a communist and he got arrested many times while he was performing. A red rose was placed on his piano while he was taken away, and his orchestra continued to play.

For the actual interview with Osvaldo y Coca, I will post it when I am ready. I need a lot of help with translation. If there’s anybody in New York area who would be interested in helping me, please let me know. My e-mail is ClaraUeki@aol.com

My journal will continue more. I have more stories to tell. Hope you are enjoying it. Kumi

Interview Four: Carlos and Rosa Perez

2009-12-04T02:13:00.000-05:00

Carlos and Rosa Perez are dancers who have maintained the style of the traditional tango rooted from the 50's. They have been teaching at the Club Sunderland and the teachers of the world Champions, including the 2009 Salon Champion, Kyoko and Hiroshi Yamano.

Buenos Aires, October 2009

Dear Kumi

After returning from Austria, Denmark, Germany, London and Italy and now getting ready to leave for Canada. I fulfill my promise to answer your questions. I am not too fond of writing, I prefer to have a conversation about these themes. The "Gab" is more to my liking but because the distance between us is far, and out of respect to yourself and the readers of “El Cuartito de los Milongueros" here goes:

CARLOS PEREZ:

I began dancing in 1952. I learned mostly by practicing among fellows that were much older than I from 10 to 15 years my seniors. Very well known milongueros from that time. Later one would dance in the dozens old neighborhood/barrio clubs that were around in old Buenos Aires at that time, where the music of the tango was queen and the majority of the public chose it.

Rosa started years later, in her home, practicing with her older brothers whom where the ones that later took her out dancing one Saturday.

We stopped dancing around the year 1964, when we were wedded. In that instance it wasn't well looked at to dedicate ourselves to tango as a way of life and we decided to place all our energies in forming our family.

Around this time there were only few places where to go dancing, there weren't that many venues available and they were frequented by older more advanced dancers. The younger community of dancers danced jazz, American boogie, (Swing Dance) and studied a lot of Tap. Later came a style of Swing dance from Italy that wasn’t as popular but was the precursor to Rock-n-Roll* that set fire to our Argentine youth (still danced today in Argentina as well).

We began dancing professionally again in 1994 (because socially in family get together we always continued to dance). It just so happened that one day I went to visit the person that showed me my first steps of tango, Jose "Lampazo" Vazquez a great dancer and teacher. He held us dear because we were once neighbors during my youth and my first teacher. In that chance meeting was born the club "Sin Rumbo" and my relationship was very warm as it has always have been with the maestro and friend.

Later on and suggested by him, we began going to the classes as a pastime for enjoyment. But shortly after, Jose began feeling ill and having health issues and asked us to replace him in his classes. This is how we reunited with the Tango dance.

A few years passed and we suffered the lose this great dancer and friend, Jose "Lampazo" and so we took over the classes he was teaching in "Sunderland" in Villa Urquiza" by the request of the Directive Commission of the Club.

This is how we started again our dedication to the teaching of tango dance. It was just by coincidence that we had the luck of maintaining the roots in the tango traditional. It had already been almost 30years that we haven’t danced nor were contaminated in the milongas during that time. All of our moves responded to the decade of the 50's and that was a great attraction to the youth (and not so young) to ask for more classes with great enthusiasm.

How many years do you dance with Rosa? My entire life, from the time we were very young we have been sharing life and the tango. We came to the tango during the 50's with the passion and happiness that was of that era and with our own youthfulness.

Not one of the old "Milongueros" had any expectations, never thought of having any economic income with tango. With this I would like to say that in that era that no one got to travel because of tango. We danced it for the love of the music and as a form of conquest.

Dancing for us was a form of connecting with a girl and then the conquest. This is the reason we began to push ourselves to dance better each time and immerse our presence.

The first time we traveled because of tango was to Paris. We gave classes for a period of two months. Later on came an avalanche of trips and performances: Challiot Theater of Paris, Parco de la Musica Rome, Teatro Colon Buenos Aires, theaters in Tokyo, just to name a few. We also were filmed in a few movies and documentaries for Television.

As I have been told by my elders, tango had its greatest height in the 40's and 50's.

In the 1940's the turn was created by Petroleo and el Negro Mansini two of the greatest Milongueros of that era, also known as the "Canyengue" era.

With the pass of time that same tango was danced more delicate and elegantly. A lot of emphasis was given to the elegance in Salon style tango.

One would dance at house parties (without cortes or quebradas, very respectfully) in neighborhood/barrio clubs, generally on Saturdays or Sundays would be frequented by neighborhood girls always accompanied by a mother or older brother, because arriving alone was frowned upon.

Obviously there existed other types of dance salons, were men and women of the night would be and people with no jobs.

The music that was listened to during my time in the 50's was music that was played by live orchestras. Di Sarli, D'Arienzo, Pugliese , Canaro , Troilo, Calo, and many more.

The classic neighborhoods/barrios were one would dance would be Saavedra, Urquiza, Villa Pueyrredon, Villa Devoto, Villa Real, Paternal, Villa Mitre and other all around the capital. South of the capital they would dance a different style much more brisk what they call Tango Orillero.

Some dance halls and dancers that I remember are some of the ones that danced "50's style"(please forgive me if I forget to mention someone, I am a man getting on in my years and there are a few things that escape me)

Salon Agusteo, El Palermo located on Oro and Santa Fe, La Argentina, Alumni in Urquiza, Sin Rumbo, Viento Norte, Estudiantes de Villa Devoto, Moran, Glorias Argentinas, Floresta Junior, La Emiliana, Mitre, Sunderland, Pinocho, 17 de Octubre, California, Penacho Azul, Juventud de Belgrano, Excursionista, Chacarita Juniors, Villa Sahores and many more. Milongueros I must name Jose Vazquez "Lampazo", Osvaldo Mosi "El Nene", Mingo Canonigo, Gerardo Portalea, Eduardo Pereja, Maita, Gallego Villarrazo, Frasquito, Petroleo, el Jorobado Victor, Negro Luis, Tomas Luis, Luis Lemos “Milonguita”, Juan Carlos Copes, Rogelio “El Tio” and many more that I do not recall their names but were as great a dancers as the best in town.

In the 50's the Tango was one of the alternatives a youth had for his enjoyment, just as much as looking for girl, because back then that was no easy task.

The Tango was danced with a lot of feeling/emotion. The lyrics of the songs were things that happened to each of us in daily life, the street lights, the cobble stone streets, the love for the mother, love for the girl, a Buenos Aires lost in time.

We all respected the codes inside the dance, we all stayed in the line of dance, even if they weren’t the great milongueros. at the same time the majority heard the music with the same critic, even though the floor was packed one could enjoy. It was rare to see couples colliding, it was actually frown upon.

The lowest point for our tango was during the 60's. In those times there were rarely any places to go dancing, the vast majority had closed.

The actual tango itself has evolved a lot I reckon. Because of other popular dances it has added elements such as movements from other dances, for instance the contemporary classic and others. Some to me seem very pretty and others I think deviate from its essence. Of course one must understand that things change and the young people always need to create something new.. that is all fine.

According to tango historians tango has its origins in afro influences where Candombe then el milongon and la milonga, the tango orillero, canyengue, salon style and lastly tango fantasia from the 50's I believe were the beginnings of Stage Tango.

For us, Tango meant something very special, always it was and in this chapter of our lives gives us permission to move to its rhythm of its music, embrace one another and turn back time enjoying its melody.

It allows us to meet people from different regions of the world, transmitting our traditional tango to the young of all ages and classes and besides being able to travel around the world where they cheer us with affection and respect that we have sown the seeds during all these years. It maintains us active and happy.

We have lived moments of intense happiness when we saw our students win in distinct world competitions and more so see them grow as dancers and persons traveling the world taking our popular music with a little bit of us with them. This is beautiful!

If anyone were to ask me what one needs to be a good tango dancer I would say that they have to begin by learning the roots of this dance because in another way they could be good dancers but not good tango dancers, or else it becomes a dance that is done on tango music.

To achieve BEING A GOOD TANGO DANCER, one needs to fall in love with this music, a lot of consistency, dedication and be well guided by someone that knows what is Tango.

And on top of all that you have to keep in mind a popular saying "lo que natura no da, Salamanca no presta"**.. that is to say some have a special gift to overcome and some will never have it, just like with everything in this life.

CARLOS Y ROSA PEREZ

*Rock-n-Roll- Swing dance in double time

**lo que natura no da, salamanca no presta - What nature doesn't give you, Salamanca(a city) wont lend.

Interview Three: Jorge Torres

2009-08-17T20:05:00.000-04:00

Jorge Torres is a world-renowned Tango Choreographer, Dancer, and Impresario of dance productions. As Dance Captain of “Forever Tango ”, Creative Director of The Shimmy Club Inc., Juror of the tango championships, Artistic Director of the American Tango Institute, he is constantly touring across the USA, Asia and Europe, teaching and inspiring others in the art of Argentine Tango. He is also a husband and a father.

1. How long have you been dancing tango?

I have been dancing from 3, performing since 5 years old. I started as a dancer, studying Folclore Argentino, Ballet, Flamenco and Tango Argentino, because my teacher wanted me to become a dancer.

My teacher's name is Norberto Guichenduc. He is a very important person in my life. He taught me everything. He taught me about how to be a dancer, how to respect the dance, about life, about everything. He taught me so much, and started to spend time with him more than my father, he became my second father, and then became my mentor. He is 72 years old now. I still see him when I go to Argentina. He was a principal dancer in the Colon Theater, he danced ballet, folclore, flamenco, tango and he was a pianist too. He did everything perfect, as a teacher, as dancer, as a person. He was living in Europe, but he returned to Argentina, in the early 70's and some how he moved into my neighborhood. My neighborhood is a very small town and nobody knows why he moved there. But that's how I met him and he taught me to be a dancer.

After studying with him until I was 10 years old, I joined Ballet Forclorico Nacional for another 10 years, until 20 years old. When I was in school, there were many classmates who danced much better than I did, but many of them couldn't continue because their parents couldn't pay the tuitions. If they continued, they would have become much better dancer than I am now, but everybody has different life. Fortunately, my parents were able to pay for my lessons. They worked very hard and kept me to finish the school. I finished the school and I joined the Teatro Colon Ballet de Refuerzo.

After I joined the Colon, the singer Libertad Lamarque (a female singer level of Gardel) asked me to work for her show. That's how I started to perform as a tango dancer.

2. When did you decide to become a tango dancer?

It wasn't my choice. My teacher taught me all kinds of dances. When we first learned tango, we were only 8 or 10, any kind of dance was fun, it was like a game. We've been performing since we were very young, I've been performing since 5, so for us, we never thought about "becoming a professional dancer". It was a natural thing to become a dancer; there wasn't a day or a moment that we decided "to become a dancer". We were dancers already it was a natural thing.

3. When did you start going to Milongas?

After I became 20 years old. Because I was performing, teaching, and studying all different kinds of dances at the same time, I was very busy, I had no time for myself, no time to sleep. Working hard pushing myself, pushing and pushing, so crazy because I was young I had no limit to push myself.

4. I guess at that time, going to Milongas was part of your job.

Yes, at that time I only had 3 hours of sleep a day. Working so hard, I had no private life, not even going to disco with the guys. Only work.

5. What did you think about Milongas when you first been there?

I thought it was mysterious groups of people, like a mafia. Being at your seat was the safest place. And you had to sit very very low. Because you cannot see anything when you stand up. Everybody was smoking cigarette so much, the room was filled with smoke, all white. The air was so bad and you cannot see anything. So you sit very very low, to avoid the smoke. That was the safest place to be.

6. When did you start going to Milongas for your own joy and not as a job?

I think it was after I decided to do Tango only. I dropped ballet, quite the rest of the dances and really became Argentine Tango dancer only. Because I realized Tango was the best way for me to express myself. It was easier than ballet or Argentine Folclore. I felt the most comfortable for me. It was after my 20 years old.

7. Do you consider yourself as a Tanguero or Milonguero or just simply a dancer?

Originally I am a dancer. I am 42 years old and I danced for 39 years. My life is about to be a dancer. Also, because of my training of my teacher, he wanted me to be a dancer in life. I became a dancer naturally.

But Milonguero.... Milonguero is to be not something nice. Long time a go, to be a Milonguero was to be someone who doesn't know anything else, he doesn't work, have no money, only about girls and night. Longtime ago, if you call "Milonguerito" it meant something like an insult. With years, with tango business, to be a milonguero became a business word. Now we have Milonguero style, Milonguero this, Milonguero that for business, also another word of Milonguero, from the exact translation just means simply a person who goes to Milonga. Do I consider myself as a Milonguero? No, forget it! Milonguero was something horrible.

- So you consider yourself as a tanguero?

Yes.

8. What do you enjoy the most about Tango?

I enjoy the feelings of something that keep surprising me, and they keep me feel ticklish in my blood asking me to dance. Even you know all the songs or what ever, one mood comes into me in a specific way. That makes me want to dance again. You know when you are in milongas and you are ready to leave, then you hear a song and you go back to the dance again? It's like food. You thought you were full and you don't want to eat any more, and then you see this dish and that dish? (chocolates, cakes?) Even you don't want to, you do it anyway.

9. When you dance, what is the most important thing for you?

For me, the most important thing is to get the feeling of two persons, women and man dancing.

They used to call me "the man who dances". I want to feel like a man who dances. Because I am a dancer all my life, I don't want to "look like" a dancer. I want to look as a man who is dancing with a woman together. That is the most important thing that what I dance. I don't like to be looked as a dancer. I like to be more real, like a man who dances.

10. What makes a dance beautiful?

The pleasure of the silence and the heart beat. It makes you go inside of people, inside of your partner, go inside of your body, not out side. More you are inside, the rest is beautiful. You can feel everything.

11. In Tango we talk a lot about elegance. Could you explain what is elegant and not elegant?

Elegant is simply about your being. Are you elegant or not? (He picks up a salt shaker in front of him and say) look, do you think this is elegant? No, right? This is not elegant. This is just an ordinary shaker, but if you go to an expensive elegant restaurant everything you see is elegant. You just know what is elegant or not.

- But I feel in America, you know this is a country of freedom, and I think people here appreciate, or like being casual more than being elegant.

Well, old days in Argentina, people were elegant. For example, the other day at the championship, everybody dressed very elegant. Usually they are never in suites. Why did they wear suite that day? Because they want to look elegant! But they only wear suite for that day, so they look fake.

11. What is "Good dancer"?

Good dancer is the one who does little bit, of a lot

Quantity kills quality.

12. Why do you think tango is beautiful?

I have two passions in my life, other than my family. Tango and Martial Arts.

Even when I'm sleepy or tired, if somebody is talking about tango or martial arts, I wake up. Boom! Even I'm so dead tired.

- Does it come from music or lyrics or from the dance...?

No, I think,,, it's all in Tango. Tango, in general. I love tango in many ways. I like to really feel in Tangos. I was born in 67, was in the 70's. I missed everything in the golden age. I was not part of that. I missed all that, so what I try to do is from my point of view, from my age. I live in New York and I'm not in Argentina all the time to get the feeling from the older people, because I think you can also ask older people and to talk to them. But to me, the result is when you see them dancing. When you see them dance, you can see so many things. When you really see them, you can really squeeze them, when you really see them, like their faces, you can see their life as a reflection in their dances. And they don't care who's watching them.

Most of the young people, they are more so worried about what people think or what people say, they are not honest with themselves. You know when you are in love, you don't want to eat, you don't want to sleep, it's "magical". You don't care what people think. For me beauty is that something like that.

13. You often say, "You have to be honest to yourself". Are you saying it as a dancer?

As a dancer. First of all as a dancer. But also as a human being. You have to be honest to yourself because we are all affected by the society.

Let's say you wanted to eat a cake, but you think people think you are fat, so you only order tea. You change your decision because what people think of you. You actually wanted to do this but you don't do it because of other people. And that happens exactly the same in tango. Instead of what you really wanted to do, you do what society tells you to do.

When you dance, you can not think about who's looking, think what people would say, or think I have to do this way. When you dance so close to the person, it starts to become a relationship with yourself. You have to be honest to your self. It is about relationship with your self.

14. When you teach, what do you try to teach?

What I try, is to give knowledge to people. My main focus on the people is to be an educator. I believe all of us, we need to find a right guide to guide you. If we train you in a right way, with a right knowledge, you can become something positive for Argentine Tango. But if I train you in a wrong way or just to do steps, we keep collecting garbage instead of improving Argentine Tango. "We need good dancers", it doesn't matter which countries. This is something I say to all the students.

"WE need good dancers" otherwise Argentine Tango is going to die. It will be garbage.

I am very interested to train people how to express themselves easily, to understand what tango means, how to respect themselves, how to respect the person in your arms, how to listen and to understand the music and many other things. It's not that you just put the music and go. You need to "learn". This is our responsibility, to try to make people understand. This is kind of work I want to do, giving knowledge, about life, about dance, about music, and everything.

15. Do you have any message to us?

Don't spend time getting dizzy in tango. Try to talk, try to learn from the right people. Because unfortunately too many people are so dizzy these days. And the problem is they start to believe in everything.

For example, the other day at the championship, so many garbage is going around in the Internet and everywhere now. Why do people think they know? And they don't know anything! They don't have any idea. But they feel they have power. But I don't care. Now I have to go to the championship in Buenos Aires to be a judge over there for Mundial de Baile de Tango. So that means for Argentinean Organization I am very important for them. Because I was one of the judges for the first Mundial championship and for different cities, countries, so I know what I am talking about. If they don't understand, it's not my problem. If they need to understand something, they have to come and ask us. Not to create more garbage in our tango community that nobody needs. This year I had two people who came to ask me. For me it was great! At least they got something positive from it. So I said to them, "this is something you need to understand, I am so glad you came to me." "I am so glad, because I know at least you have answers"

I am not here to help people. When I am here as a judge, I am not here to help people. I am here to help Argentine Tango. Doesn't matter who are the contestants. No friends, no wife, no son or daughter of someone of championship. I don't care. I'm trying to help Argentine Tango

So that is why, maybe, I think that is why most of the teachers here in NY, they don't want to be judges, because the people here, they will start to hate them. But I don't care, my life is in a different place. My position is different. For me, tango is not a business.

16. What is Code? From the previous interviews, we've been hearing a lot about "Codes". I thought it meant simply general manners, rules..., but I feel there's more in it.

Yes, that is all included.

In Japan, we have different ways of speaking, when you speak to your parents, or to your friends, teachers, younger brother, we have different languages to use. Is code something similar to that?

Yes, that is it. It is the respect. The only ones that we know about the respect are the people involved. Most of the young people now, they don't know anybody. They don't know any important dancers from before. So there's no relationship. Everybody is from out side now. That's why we say, "they don't have code". They don't have the code that we used to have.

Even in Buenos Ares?

I'm talking about in Buenos Aires. There's no more code. It doesn't exist anymore. The best way to learn the code is to be with old people.

17. When was the most exciting time in tango for you? "Tango Golden Age"

Now is the Golden age, because, you know why? Because I can appreciate tango more. Now I can say I understand Tango.

And how many years did it take you to understand tango?

When you are 20, you think you know well, but when you turn 30 you think you know better. It comes with experience. It comes with the history of your life. This is my second time marriage, I've been through many things, now I know what heart ache means, I have many bruises, and now I know what bruises feel like. And when I listen to tango lyrics, it says exactly how I am feeling now and I am so amazed "how do you know exactly how I feel!?", I say "he is talking about me", and that is happening the same with other people at the same time. (laugh)

So do you think Tango lyrics are very important part to dance tango?

Yes. You need to know the lyrics. Other wise, may be the lyric is singing about the death, and you cannot dance happy jumping and excited.

When I dance, I improvise the music, sometime I dance with piano, dance with violin, I dance along the music too.

And how do you incorporate it with steps and leading?

The music naturally brings you there, and you need enough vocabularies to make it happen. Good leader can seduce the partner to do things, they need to feel the women, be present, not to be too charged, not to be empty for another person and be able to seduce to do things. And for the followers too, she needs to be present for the leader.

"Having confidence kills respect"

We have a word in Spanish "confidence", we use like "I have confidence in you". When you have a good friend, you say I have confidence in you. In tango, "having confidence kills the respect". When you have a very good friend and you know the person so well you lose the respect to the person. When you dance with someone you know for a long time, it starts to become a routine, little by little. You know what this person is going to do so well, you stop paying attention. Some people they dance the same song with same person all the time nothing new, nothing fresh. But when you dance with someone new, you need to be alert and really feel the person, and be fully present for the other person. That's why I like to I keep changing partners all the time. I dance with different people, to keep Argentine Tango fresh and new.

18. About older people dancing, you said that when you see them dancing you can see so many things. Do you see it even when you are watching in internet? Because I cannot see it. Do I need to see them in real? Or do you see it even with videos?

Well, you have to see it in a different way. You need to try to see who that person is. You need to think what kind of life they had, what kind of things they went through, you just don't see it in the movement, it's a different way of seeing.

Hmmmm, I don't know what kind of life they had, because I don't know how people live in Argentina generally. Do you think I need to know the basic background to imagine it?

Hmmmm, maybe. ...... .....Yes, you need to know.

Do I need to know what kind of persons they are to understand the dance?

If you know them, it is of course more interesting.

And you said young people they are worried about how they look and not dancing honestly....?

At the end they start to do what they want to do. But their mind, the young kids, what do they think? They think about the economy, about the future? No they don't care, they just want to play, they want to have fun, party everyday. They are not thinking to help kids, they are not thinking about pay the bills, they don't have so many things that you get it later. They don't have different kinds of heart broken experiences. Things haven't happened to them so much, because they are so young. Everything starts to change when things happen to you in your life. That's why you can't find very young kid, but very mature. Because may be to that kid, so many things happened to him, earlier in life. Maybe you can find somebody 60, 70 years old, completely immature. Because age doesn't make you mature. Life, depend what kind of life, depend what happened to you in life make you do that.

And that shows in the dance?

It's a reflection.

...I cannot see that. I can feel that. When I dance together. I can feel that. That is why I like dancing with old people. But I don't see it...

It's ok, don't worry about it. It's just knowledge. It takes time, process, study, try to understand, you know? It's ok.

19. We often hear different instructors teaching different styles, and we get confused. What is exactly, Milonguero, Salon, Fantasia...

Fantasia is like Carlos Copes. It's a stage. Salon is very simple. It is very elegant, subtle, simple. Just to get you an idea, how dizzy people get, here and all over the world. To dance Salon is just to walk. No even cross (5). That is tango Salon. What people dance now is not salon, what people dance now is Tango Pista and they think they are doing tango salon. Usually what people dance in Milonga is Pista when they do steps. Before it was only walking. Salon is only walks no figures.

What is Figures?

Figure is the steps, combination of steps.

And what is Tango Pista?

That is another price.

Okay. (laugh)

20. When I take lessons with the very top world class dancers and say "Milonguero" or "Urquiza" they usually all stop me and say, "don't make things complicated. This is Argentine Tango". I feel they don't like us talking about styles.

Yes, it doesn't mean anything. Look, every barrio has a style and every person has his own style. It's not only one specific style. If you put 20 couples in the same club, let's say from Urquiza. They are all going to look not the same. They will all going to look different, other wise, they are all copies, they are not originals.

And in Argentine Tango, the main thing is to be an original. Other wise they are copies. It is important to be honest with your own style.

21. How can we dance original?

This is like when a baby learning a language. In the beginning baby start saying things. You don't' know what they are saying. They start with making noises that nobody understands. Then they start to say Mama, Papa, they start to learn something that what we teach them. After the baby start learning words, mama, papa, this, that, everything separate, then we start to teach the fraise "mama, I love you", but the baby still doesn't know what that means. They are just repeating the fraise. First they repeat the words, now it is the fraise. After that baby start to learn how to mix things, this word, with this another word. That means, that there is a transformation. Later on baby is not going to say only what mother teach, now baby starts to say what he wants to say.

So for tango you need to start from copying.

Yes, so you learn words first then the fraises and then the final point is to say what ever you would like to say. And after you get your own way of saying, then you are developing your own style.

So it's ok to copy at the beginning.

Yes, you need to copy, you need to learn. It is ok. And gradually you start to have the style.

But there is a problem with our teachers. We are not teaching you as we are. We have to give you education to make you to be who you are. It's completely different. Most of the teachers they teach you to be like them. So they create copies. That is Very bad. Because everybody wants to be like "no, this is my student, if he dance like this", that is horrible. They are killing your life. They don't want to kill your life but they are doing that.

We have to be more educators than teachers. Teachers show you how to do things but don't give you education, knowledge, or don't give power do decide. The educators have to give you tools, tools to make everything possible. But here because we have so many teachers all over, teachers that they really don't know exactly what they suppose to do, which is happening in every country, everywhere. They just learn two things, and they start teaching and they start killing all these future good dancers. They don't give the tools, or they teach in the wrong way, or in the wrong order.

22. There are people dancing Tango steps, but the feeling, attitude is not Argentine Tango. Or sometimes dancing the movement wrong and say, "this is my Style". What makes the dance Tango and not Tango? When is it not Tango any more? For us foreigners, it is very difficult to distinguish if the movement is Argentine Tango or not.

You need to learn.

Now people have Internet. Longtime ago when we were learning there were no Internet. So we didn't have any information. The only information we had was to be with people, taking classes with everybody, to see them dance, to have an idea, but now even when we are in the end of the world, we just click the internet and we can see millions of things, now you are able to get information, even you don't know anything about tango. It's more difficult now to say I don't know anything about tango. You need to watch. Now there are so many interviews, like yours, I think there are a lot of things, information out there, the real people talking to give you ideas and to help people to clarify. I think it's easier than before. But, people have to want to learn who are the good teachers and if they know or not.

That is the hard part for us, to know who are the good teachers.

I always tell the students, doesn't matter who is the teacher, if he is teaching you, you need to ask why, why I have to do this, why I don't' have to do that. Why I can do this? If he has the answers, the right answers for everything he is a good teacher. If they say, "no, just do like that because it's like that". Don't go any more. That is wrong. Means that person doesn't know. We have to give answers like when your son or your daughter asks you for questions. We have to have answers. Because you are an example for them. If I don't give them right answers may be they go to their mom. If the mom doesn't know the answer, may be they will go to somebody else. We have to make things possible. We have to learn to make it possible.

So it's up to that person if he's willing to learn more or not?

It depends on that person how much he is hungry for the knowledge. That makes you feel proud of you later because you really searched. For your own knowledge. I tell my students, it's not so important how much I can teach you, but it is more important how much you can learn from me. That is how much you are open to learn. That's what happened from my teacher. I still go and talk to him when I am in Argentina. It doesn't have to be only about dancing. You talk about life.

Jorge Torres

El hombre que baila

Interviewed July/August 2009

Interview Two: Raul Bravo

2009-08-17T20:02:00.001-04:00

Raul Bravo started his career as an exhibition dancer in 1952. He has been performing and teaching since then. He had tango schools with Antonio Todaro for 17 years, and taught many important dancers as, Roberto Reis y Guillermina Quiroga,Gabriel Angio, Natalia Gamez, Carlos Copello, Alicia Monti, Julio Mendez, Ricardo Gallo, Pancho Martinez Pei, Pedro Calveira, Nora Robles, Alejandra Arruè y Sergio Natario, Gabriela Elias y Eduardo Perez, Stella Barba, Cristian Marquez y Virginia Gomez, Hernan Villegas y Gladis Colombo, Emiliano y Debra, German Cassano , Giraldo Diomar, Eduardo Sotelo, Miguel A. Plas, Rodolfo Ruiz, Pablo Villarraza , Lalo y Mirta, Holanda, Sandor y Miriam, EE.UU. Julio Mendez y Ana, Ruth Manonella y Andreas Erbsen, Gustavo Rosa.

1. How long have you been dancing tango?

I have danced professionally for 50 years and I continue to teach. In total 55 years.

2. What was tango scene like when you started?

When I started dancing Tango the scene was different compared to today. You learned Tango for the love of it, today the majority of the youth get into Tango because it is a source of work, at least in Argentina.

3. How were the ratio of men and women back then?

The percentage of men to women, in that time, (the past) was very even, although there were always more women than men.

4. To be able to dance in Milongas, did everybody take lessons at the beginning, like we do here in NY? In average how long did leaders take lessons and about how much money did they spend? What is the value in this time? What about yourself? Did you go take lessons?

There were always schools, but you would teach in the clubs, between friends, practice between men, in academies, which were many. The capacity depended on each individual.

To learn to dance was from the heart and not about business. It was more for fun than a profession. It was not about making money.

I took my first Tango steps with teachers who taught me the basic, their artistic name Los Hermanos Gianelly (the Gianellly Brothers) and they were from Galvez, ( Santa Fe).

I learned what my friends taught me, and my training was too short, in one year I was dancing professionally.

5. We hear leaders used to sit and watch a lot. (Unfortunately this does not happen in NY) How long did they watch in average? Days? Weeks? Months? And you? What did you watch, what movement did you pay attention and for how long?

Yes it is true, you would observe to learn, and to respect your colleagues, the necessary time needed for each individual, everyone was not the same.

To know the ambiance of a Milonga, it was necessary to know those whom were very respected, those who danced the most, those who thought the most, because the ambiance of the Milonga today is not the same as the past, it is completely different.

The man is different he is not the same, the woman neither, the codes were very important, there were rules that you had to respect, the man the role of macho, and the woman her femininity. My observation was that of a common Milonguero, respect and be respected, I was very respected for my conduct, everyone in their place.

6. Do you remember when you first asked a lady to dance? How did it go?

NO, no I don't remember. Too many years have past in my life and many dancers that I can not say. Of Course that when one dances for the first time, you feel nervous and things turn out more wrong than right.

7. I heard that in old days men practiced with men. Did you practice with men too? Or is that something happened way back in the past? If so which decade was that?

Yes, I learned with men and I would go to practicas between men. One of the places that I practiced was "Deportivo de Barraca" it was on Velez Sarfield street at 300. And other places I don't remember the locations, in Pompeya in the club "Flecha de Oro" (Golden Arrow). The Tango and the practica craze were in the 50's and 60's.

8. In Facundo’s interview, he said Milonguero made his students walk for months. Was the walking done alone or with a partner? Were there more men in practicas?

Let’s see in parts, in the practicas there were no women, the ability to try to walk well in Tango was fundamental. The ones who knew the most would insist that you practice your base and then your sequences. The practicas were only for men, and then what you learned you would use in the milongas with women.

9. I heard that people used to go to practicas more, and it was not popular to take workshops. Why is that?

No, the people would go to the Milongas in the local clubs, the mothers would bring the girls, the dances were very nice in those times, "very family oriented".

You would dance in the families’ houses, one week in each place, you would unite all the nearing neighborhoods, it was another time and respect was fundamental.

Workshops were referred as "academies”, but in the 40’s until the 80’s it was looked bad upon to be a tango teacher and to have academies.

I suffered many years the rejection for being a Tango teacher, primarily the society, the municipal and political authorities condemned you. The police would treat you like a Gigolo for being a teacher and the women as prostitutes. Thanks to the explosion of Tango in the 70’s abroad, things changed and it was recognized more as a dance.

10. Even practicas were more popular, you have started the tango school with Antonio Todaro. Why is that? Was the school for professionals? Please tell me about the school.

No, practicas were different from tango schools. There were no teachers in the practicas, only the ones in love of the dance and this was the best tribute that one could toast. Dancing and transmitting what one knew to the ones that knew less.

The schools were something different, they charged a monthly fee to learn with teachers, and you paid the dancers that worked in the studio to practice.

I started with maestros in 1960 in the ACADEMIA DOPAZO located in Avenida Rivadavia 2669 Capital. There I met A.Todaro and we worked different schedules for 3 years. Then we opened our own tango academies, our partnership lasted 17 years. The first academy was TODARO-BRAVO in Rivadavia and Misiones street, the second was located Rivadavia and Rojas. We closed them in 1980 and we continued working separately.

11. You are known as a master of exhibition tango dancer. Historically, when did exhibitions in Milongas start? Were there any exhibitions back then when all the orchestras (Di Sarli, D’Arienzo and all others) were playing in the dance halls? Who were performing then?

I started, but I don’t know when. All of the sudden I was working and performing, little by little. My first performance was with Juan Drienzo’s Orchestra in Colombia (1960). Between 1955 and 1960 I had won 3 tango competitions some which lasted 4 months. The 1st organized by la Confiteria(café) “Domino” in Suipacha and Lavalle street. The 2nd competition was in Confiteria (café) Siglo XX, in Corrientes y Uruguay, and the 3rd witch lasted 3 months “La Casa Del Tango”.

Of course all the orchestras played in cafes and clubs , the dancers in he 40’ and after , including “Tim” one of the best dancers in history, Jorge Marques y Lilian, Los Mendez, El Mixto, Lalo Bello, El tarila, Lavandina, Arturito and then later came , Juan Carlos Copes, Eduardo Aquimbau, Virulazo, Todaro, Kalisay. The last ones are from my generation.

It was common to dance with a live orchestra. Some of the places still exist. The clubs that were hired for carnivals, live orchestras were able to hold a larger capacity of people.

12. I heard that those orchestras played around in many neighborhoods. Did they play on weekends only, or weekdays too?

The orchestras played generally on the weekends, in the neighborhoods or provinces close to Buenos Aires. During the week, they played in the Confiterias (cafés) or performed on radio stations.

13. To have a full orchestra in the dance hall, I guess the hall had to be very big. Do those dance halls still exist today?

The Salons of that era, where people danced, were relatively big for the amount of dancers, who visited, let’s not forget that the population quadrupled. There are still Salons that are places to dance, for example: Salon Augusteo, Salon Reduccci, Centro Italiano, Salon San Jose, Centro de Almacenero, Centro Gallego and many more that do not come to my mind.

14. When were Canning, Almagro, Sunderland, and all the famous Milonga started? Did they invite the orchestras too?

15. When did milongas start to have DJs, using recorded music? Were they playing records? Were there tandas and cortinas, too?

14. – 15. Lets go by parts, Salon Canning and Almagro Club were products after the 70s, not like Sunderland that was a neighborhood institution of Urquiza with many years of Tango life.

Of Course, all the Salons brought orchestras, some brought orchestras that were less popular, but with very good musicians, that later became famous and very popular.

The recorded music started after the crisis in our blessed Argentina, the budgets started shrinking for the orchestras and the orchestras started cutting down on musicians.

The dances were overtaken by mainstream and Jazz or tropical music, and in between the sets recorded tango music would be played (a span of 30 minutes).

16. In the 70’s, tango was not danced much. Were you sill going to Milongas? How often? What kind of places did people go to dance? What was Milongas like then?

In the 70’s the tango for the milongueros never stopped, there were always milongas, aside from all the obstacles the military implemented, the tango cantinas opened up, I’ll name a few: “El Plumerillo”, Cantina “La Amistad”, “La Payanca” “El Farolito”, “El Ricon De Los Artistas”, “Vostango” which we can not forget if you claim to know the history of Tango.

In the 70s you would go dance tango and you didn’t know if you would end up in the precinct or central booking.

17. How did tango and people come back to milongas in the 80’s?

People began dancing Tango after the 80s because the dictatorship ended and we discovered our identity, and bye to the prohibition, enthusiastically tango places reopened and the Department of Culture recognized the music and dance.

18. What do you like about milongas now and what do you miss from the past?

I don’t miss the pass. I lived the past and enjoyed it. I can not give my opinion now because I don’t frequent milongas. Maybe once in a while I’ll go because I’m invited. But not that often.

19. How did tango changed thought out today? What do you feel about the changes?

What changed the tango?? The tango is still tango. There are always crazy and revolutionary people in every aspect of life, but it is what it should be ….. Tango. If you want to jump …jump. If you want to show that this dance is machismo, sweetness, passion, “show it”. It’s not about who does more tricks or the one who jumps the highest, it is about embracing the body in front of you, and to feel that you are dancing.

20. What do you enjoy the most when you dance tango?

In my years of youth I enjoyed a lot, because I danced a little, but I felt a lot through the music of my preferred orchestras. And the tango lyrics reflected my state of being(Love), which is what one lives in there youth.

21. Why tango is beautiful for you?

Everything that concerns my world is in tango, it is inexplicable, love, pain, friends, dreams, dance, want etc…

22. What is the most important thing when you dance?

Enjoy the music and respect the times

23. What makes the dance beautiful?

Simplicity and respect everyone else on the dance floor

24. How could we become “Good Mironguero”?

You are born with that, you can not teach something you are not. It does not matter how much you study, the impertinences, education, the importance is the values and codes.

25. Is there anything else that you would like to mention to us?

No… the tango has already been invented, we have to try to preserve it.

26. What is your wish for the future of Argentine Tango?

To have rational critics, musicians and dancers to represent us worldwide.

27. Do you have any message to us?

I don’t give advice. I can only thank-you from my heart, for being a person whom reflects through our dance from New York, many hours away by plane from our lovely Argentina and whom worries about preserving the magic of Tango. Thanks. Thanks. My respect and a lovely hand shake.

Raul Bravo

(Interviewed in May 2009)

Interview One: Facundo Posadas

2009-08-17T20:00:00.000-04:00

Facundo Posadas is one of the few old milongueros that remain in the tango scene. He has been dancing tango since back in the 50's, which was still in the tango golden age. He may be the only Afroargentine that tours around the world, known by his dancing and teaching Tango, Milonga and Candombe.

How long have you been dancing tango? How old were you?

I’ve danced for many years. I started 55 years ago in youth meetings that we called “Asaltos”; the girls used to bring cakes and the boys refreshments. That was my beginning at 13 years old and Gavito was 11 years old at that time.

Did everybody danced tango back then?

In those years people danced a lot and in those meetings. We listened to tipica (orchestra) and Jazz; tipica for “Tango” and “Jazz” because everybody danced that rhythm at that time. Hardly ever a Tango Orchestra was performing alone, in general it was accompanied by a Jazz Orchestra.

Did you go dancing with your friends or with your partners?

In those years, because we were so young we went dancing with a group of friends (male and female); we were not thinking to have exclusive partners or girlfriends.

What was Milonga like back then?

In the 50’s and 60’s, people danced respecting the line of dance. Nobody was hardly ever pushed or tried to pass the dancers in front of them. If someone didn’t dance well people had the patience to wait until the end of the song. In those years, the codes were respected. If there was no order, it is impossible to enjoy the dance. Why do we respect the order on a highway? Not being aware of this would create a serious chaos. Well the same applies for the dance floor. Nowadays people don’t respect it and produce chaos. They don’t care to follow the codes and have no clue about dancing in the place where the couple in front of you has left the space free. In those times they did care about this. A good dancer (leader) must have enough resources to dance and not to let his partner (follower) to be hit by other dancers. This I call dancing well.

Which milongas did you go?

As the years passed we left the neighborhoods for “milonguear” (dance tango) in downtown. We went around to many different dance floors following the orchestras of our preference wherever they played. Many Saturdays we went to listen and dance with “Carlos Di Sarli’s Orchestra”. We stayed until one in the morning then immediately ran off to another place because “Anibal Troilo’s Orchestra” was playing. And another Saturday, for example, we went to see “Osvaldo Pugliese’s Orchestra” and later “Juan D’Arienzo’s Orchestra” as well, and this we called “Doblete”, (double night).

When was the most exciting time in the tango for you? “Tango Golden Age”

My beginning in the tango scene was in the “Golden Era” with friends who were older than me. There were “reales milongueros” (real tango dancers), and if they saw that you had a real style, they would invite you to practice. But if your purpose was only to spend time there just for fun they didn’t pay attention to you. They had us walk for months, and they said to us that in order to build a solid house one must have a solid foundation. No figures or tricks. If you don’t know how to walk, to step, or to put your feet in the right places; then you will never know how to dance despite what you believe.

Do you have any interesting or funny stories about tango from back then?

I have lots of memories and anecdotes of places that happened in my life. I remember that being very young I got into a cabaret called “El Dragon Rojo” (The red dragon), located at Uruguay Street between Peron and Bartolome Mitre’s streets. When I was going down the stairs, a man of my skin color stopped me, telling me that I was too young to be there. But he would go with me for some time and then I would have to leave. Imagine the jokes that people made on him because he was with a ‘negrito’ (little black). Many years later, I found out that this gentleman was “El Principe Cubano” (the Cuban prince). He accompanied Juan D’Arienzo for many years as his master of ceremonies. I also had the fortune to work with Jose Bassos’ Orchestra.

When was the first time you traveled overseas to teach tango? And which country was it?

My first trip to U.S.A. was in 1997 when I was invited to L.A. by Kobayashi who was a student and friend of Gloria and Eduardo Arquimbau and also the Director of the Tango Ballet in Tokyo. I continued my tour through Reno, invited by Alberto and Valorie. And Danel Bastone and Maria opened my door in NYC, and they made sure that I follow Bob Drosky through Montreal and Chicago to a place called “Tango nada mas” (Tango, nothing more) that was baptized by Gavito. To all these people, I owe my stay in U.S.A. until today and much more because I’m waiting for my residence and I will live my future days in North Carolina.

What do you enjoy most about tango?

I enjoy everything that tango offers me, all its passion, all its melancholy, the scent of a woman’s skin, her skin through her hands and cheeks, her perfume, her heartbeat. Mixing everything at once we get a cocktail called “Sensuality”; and without this chemistry, there’s no tango. They feel the same when they are in our arms, that we have to be gentle with our marks and movements, stepping correctly and simultaneously on the beat. We must dance INSIDE THE MUSIC and not before, it’s not possible to dance and then listen.

What is “Good Milonguero”? How could we become one?

To become a good milonguero, we need to respect who have more experience and not to be anxious to dance. The tango is patience; the tango waits; it’s an unattainable challenge that never ends. As the years pass, we must dance with more dignity. We can’t try to imitate the young ones, we can’t do what we were doing when we were 20 years old. We should dance thinking of our dance partners; be elegant with our moves; be subtle and transmit it to the person that we have in our arms.

In tango, we talk a lot about elegance. Could you explain what is elegant and what is not? What makes a dance beautiful?

How to be elegant while you're dancing means to have a good standing, to be relaxed; to step firmly and with precision; to make controlled steps and movements. We must lead our body wherever we want to go and not the other way around. It is very gratifying to see a good dancer making few figures; more than five in tango is too much. Just walk well. In the walking, one can see the elegance, and this is the most difficult thing in tango. Many people who have danced for more than 20 years do not know how to walk. They've been studying only figures, and in order to know how to walk, they will have to start all over again mending it and crossing through a long journey, erasing everything and starting from scratch.

Please tell us if there’s anything else that you would like to mention.

About tango wardrobe: In almost every opportunity of going out dancing women prepare themselves with anticipation, making this special event a ceremony. They dress with the best they have in some cases. They choose their stockings, shoes, dresses, etc. Almost always they match colors along with perfumes and hairstyles. To dash away with her sensual legs, they wear fishnet stockings, and by the way, who doesn't want to look at them with them? Men used to respond with the same coquetry, it was mutual respect. Nowadays on almost all dance floors, we see some men in jeans, shirts outside the pants, and snickers. Some don't even shave and their hair doesn't look very clean, not to mention the lack of perfume or deodorant. When I started dancing I noticed that women didn't accept dancing with men who weren't neat; they gave us the example or punishment that way. We all made sure to look good and most of all to have good breath, which one cannot hide in this cheek-to-cheek dance. The way to respect our female dance partners in the good tango is to be able to never give up these essential codes. We must learn again to respect those that accompany us in our embrace; like men used to do before the codes disappeared. We should come back and be men no machos.

In New York, we often have trouble with the “line of dance”. Could you explain what is line of dance to us, and what are the general rules? Are there any techniques we should know, or to practice to make it happen?

People on the dance floor have to respect their own line of dance; one cannot dance tango in zigzag. Imagine a highway where everybody circulates as they wish? To be able to follow the line we must stand at ninety degrees and return to the circulation, don't go any step backwards. And in very few opportunities, one could dance forward counterclockwise. I would say that there isn't any technique for this, only to be aware that we aren't alone. The dance floor is for everybody and not just for a few.

Tango has changed since you had started dancing. How do you feel about the changes? And do you have any messages and advise for us who are continuing to carry on the culture and to dance Tango?

Since I started, Tango has changed a lot. Many people in the dance halls today dance in order to be seen and neglect their partners just to show off.

These days the number of people dancing tango seems bigger. The tango went across borders. The dance made of one heart and four legs have conquered almost all societies of the world. It's wonderful how tango opened a door of communication, interlaced together without knowing the languages in order to enjoy this musical walk. It will never cease to be. Even if someone wants to change it; there will always be a milonguero defending it; is part of the culture.

I don't want to offend anyone with my beliefs or with my words; they are only supplication. From my almost sixty nine years of age, my humble wish is to not waste it or take it for granted, or try to change it. And if you dance with respect, the tango will give you the immense happiness that you were looking for.

Love and hugs for everybody.

Forever yours

Facundo

(Interviewed in March 2009)